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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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New Crew Role: Instrumental Theme |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | As demonstrated in threads here and at Intervocative, we have disputes over whether composers of instrumental themes should be recorded as Composer or Song Writer or not at all or something else.
Those who advocate Composer say that since these are compositions of music, they qualify as Composer. Opponents of this idea say that since the work is not the original score, it doesn't quality as Composer.
Those who advocate Song Writer say that songs can be instrumental only and therefore the composers of instrumental themes should be recorded as Song Writer. Opponents of this idea say that songs require words and therefore the composers of instrumental themes are not Song Writers.
A new option would be to add a third music role for Instrumental Theme to include such compositions as those for the James Bond series, Superman, Star Trek, etc. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | See my note in the other threadJames, I think we may need a different poll.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think you're referring to the fact that some "themes" are "songs" with words? I chose "Instrumental Theme" as the role here because I assumed that Theme Songs would still go under Song Writer. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | OK that sounds rational to me.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 813 |
| | Posted: | | | | No, because as I said in the other thread the "instrumental theme" is just subset of short instrumental pieces used in films.
Adding this field does not solve the problem for all of these. We would still be left with arguments about where non-theme instrumental pieces go.
The solution needs to clarify all these, and so in the process solve the theme issue. | | | Andy 
"Credited as" Names Database |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | While my particular problem would be solved by the addition of a "theme" field, I really don't think it's necessary. Again, I feel that any "theme" written by someone else than the composer of the movie's score can be handled perfectly by using the existing "song writer" credit. All some of us apparently need is a clarification from Ken that it's okay to consider any piece of original music that wasn't written by the composer of the score can be considered a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes. That's all. Again: the "composer" credit is to be "used for the composer of the film's Original Score." Any other original piece of music written by someone else than the composer, whether that is accompanied by lyrics or not, should get a "song writer" credit. If we could just all agree on that, there wouldn't be a single profile causing any problems. Why look for alternatives when the glaringly obvious solution is right there in front of you? It also remains important to me to point out that whether or not a "song", "theme" or whatever has lyrics, it is ALWAYS composed by someone. Someone composed the instrumental 'James Bond Theme', just as much as someone composed the song 'Goldfinger'. The only difference is that to 'Goldfinger', lyrics were added, but to the 'James Bond Theme', there weren't. That doesn't change the musical part of the credit: if that person did NOT supply the score, hence is not the movie's "composer", but he DID supplied a "song" / "theme" / whatever... That can only qualify him for a "song writer" credit. I have never understood why some of you would want to treat the composer of the 'James Bond Theme' as a composer (a credit we cannot use when someone else composed the score), while you'd all agree that the composer of 'Goldfinger' (along with the lyricist) would deserve a "song writer" credit. Again: if the "song" / "theme" / whatever-writer did not supply the actual score, we can only give him a "song writer" credit. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
While my particular problem would be solved by the addition of a "theme" field, I really don't think it's necessary. Again, I feel that any "theme" written by someone else than the composer of the movie's score can be handled perfectly by using the existing "song writer" credit. All some of us apparently need is a clarification from Ken that it's okay to consider any piece of original music that wasn't written by the composer of the score can be considered a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes. That's all.
Again: the "composer" credit is to be "used for the composer of the film's Original Score." Any other original piece of music written by someone else than the composer, whether that is accompanied by lyrics or not, should get a "song writer" credit. If we could just all agree on that, there wouldn't be a single profile causing any problems. Why look for alternatives when the glaringly obvious solution is right there in front of you?
It also remains important to me to point out that whether or not a "song", "theme" or whatever has lyrics, it is ALWAYS composed by someone. Someone composed the instrumental 'James Bond Theme', just as much as someone composed the song 'Goldfinger'. The only difference is that to 'Goldfinger', lyrics were added, but to the 'James Bond Theme', there weren't. That doesn't change the musical part of the credit: if that person did NOT supply the score, hence is not the movie's "composer", but he DID supplied a "song" / "theme" / whatever... That can only qualify him for a "song writer" credit. I have never understood why some of you would want to treat the composer of the 'James Bond Theme' as a composer (a credit we cannot use when someone else composed the score), while you'd all agree that the composer of 'Goldfinger' (along with the lyricist) would deserve a "song writer" credit. Again: if the "song" / "theme" / whatever-writer did not supply the actual score, we can only give him a "song writer" credit. There's an easy test to see what is or isn't a song. If it IS a song using the official definition, then it will have a credit in the end credits, giving title, label, sung by, and a credit for music, and one for lyrics if they are different people. Theme music, officially defined, doesn't get such a song credit, nor does the music composed for the background music - the main score. There are a number of people saying that a "song" doesn't have to have words, and I say that is patently wrong. Aside from the fact that every dictionary that was quoted gives a first definition saying a song has words, the official definiton used to give awards also says that. What more does one need? | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
There are a number of people saying that a "song" doesn't have to have words, and I say that is patently wrong. Aside from the fact that every dictionary that was quoted gives a first definition saying a song has words, the official definiton used to give awards also says that. What more does one need? Even if you're absolutely convinced of that, can't you try to understand that there may be a difference between the definition of "song wrïter" in a dictionary, and the use of the term within DVD Profiler. These are two very different things. I'll say it again: Any original piece of music written for a movie or TV show, but NOT written by the actual composer of the score, should be treated with a "song writer" credit.This would fit perfectly within the current system and the contribution rules. With that I don't want to declare that your dictionary is wrong; I'm only suggesting that's how we should use the credits available to us within DVD Profiler. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | The ultimate answer is that we need "open credits" for crew. We will never settle all of these issues by addressing them one by one and enduring the resultant battles.
To take a different tack on this particular issue, however, I would recommend that we change the current title of the credit in DVDP that is called "Composer" to "Scored By" and create a new title under music called "Composer (Theme only)" which could be used for both instrumental and vocal theme songs. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since the terminology seems to be the problem, why not change it completely;
Music
- Score
- Other (including lyrics)
Then we wouldn't have to worry about whether an instumental piece is a song or not. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar | | | | Last edited: by GSyren |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Since the terminology seems to be the problem, why not change it completely;
Music
- Score
- Other (including lyrics)
Then we wouldn't have to worry about whether an instumental piece is a song or not. If we're going to make changes, I'd like to see "themes (instrumental or not)" separated from of "Songs", since there is an Academy award for "Songs". | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Since the terminology seems to be the problem, why not change it completely;
Music
- Score
- Other (including lyrics)
Then we wouldn't have to worry about whether an instumental piece is a song or not. That I'd agree with. As I said, I think it would be more than enough if Ken and/or Gerri posted something like "Any original piece of music written for a movie or TV show, but NOT written by the actual composer of the score, should be treated with a "song writer" credit." But if a re-wording of the job descriptions gives us the same result, I'm obviously fine with that, too. I only want two things: - I don't want to give the "theme" writer a joint "composer" credit together with the person that ACTUALLY supplied the score. - But I do want to give a credit to the "theme" writer. Currently, the only other option is "song writer", so that's what I use. I feel that Invelos should either indicate that we should indeed use "song writer" for that, or else change the job descriptions like in GSyren's proposal, so that the users that are hung up on the "song" definition no longer have reason to argue with this. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | How about instead of a 3rd role we instead request "music" and "lyrics" tick boxes for Song Writer, such as what we have for "uncredited" and "voice only" in cast? | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
How about instead of a 3rd role we instead request "music" and "lyrics" tick boxes for Song Writer, such as what we have for "uncredited" and "voice only" in cast? I like that idea. An amendment to the rules is still required, of course, to clarify that any piece of music written specifically for the film or TV show applies. Maybe we'd also have to ask Ken to rename the field from Song to something else...? | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ya_shin: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
How about instead of a 3rd role we instead request "music" and "lyrics" tick boxes for Song Writer, such as what we have for "uncredited" and "voice only" in cast?
I like that idea.
An amendment to the rules is still required, of course, to clarify that any piece of music written specifically for the film or TV show applies. Maybe we'd also have to ask Ken to rename the field from Song to something else...? Yeah, we would still need a rule clarification to allow music-only pieces that aren't the score in the song writer category. You could check both boxes if the person wrote both too. Just like uncredited/voice. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
There are a number of people saying that a "song" doesn't have to have words, and I say that is patently wrong. Aside from the fact that every dictionary that was quoted gives a first definition saying a song has words, the official definiton used to give awards also says that. What more does one need?
Even if you're absolutely convinced of that, can't you try to understand that there may be a difference between the definition of "song wrïter" in a dictionary, and the use of the term within DVD Profiler. These are two very different things. I'll say it again:
Any original piece of music written for a movie or TV show, but NOT written by the actual composer of the score, should be treated with a "song writer" credit.
This would fit perfectly within the current system and the contribution rules. With that I don't want to declare that your dictionary is wrong; I'm only suggesting that's how we should use the credits available to us within DVD Profiler. Ah but what is difference between a film and a "franchise". A franchise would seem to share some things in common with a TV Series, and many time the TV shows crossover and vice versa. As I said is it Star Trek without A. Courage's signature theme, it could be argued that Enterprise failed in part because of that failure, is it Bond with Monty Norman's theme or Hawaii Five-O without Mort Stevens. I haven't seen anything yet that has rung bells and pointed me in the right direction, I see the issue and the suggestions some pertty good. I keep trying to figure this one out and will continue, of course I know what the REAL answer is but that os outside of my bailiwick. Keep discussing, maybe somone can ring a bell. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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